Look I know how this looks but you gotta trust me this is totally not what it looks like

"I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker" (qaaaaa) 01/05/2019 at 20:15 • Filed to: None

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I’m not doing drugs, I’m doing kitchen FEA.

I took a bit of plastic from the remains of my dipstick housing (part of it fell into the oil pan) and held it in a spoon, which I held over a Zippo burning “light petroleum distillate”. The spoon was hot enough to boil water when I plunged it into the cup. The bit of plastic melted in the spoon, so without knowing the spoon temperature, I c an’t say for sure if I'm risking melted plastic in my oil pan. Any of you have a ballpark guess for the temperature lighter fluid burns at?

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:30

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Sort of .

Zippos burn Napthalene, not butane. So it’s not very hot. You can pass a hand through the flame. Probably sub-1000F.

But you can’t calculate forward or back without knowing the exact alloy of the spoon. Which, unfortunately for you, is irrelevant.

Water boils at 212F. Oil temperature at the sump area should be between 220 and 240F for most cars.

You have melted plastic in your crankcase.

Sovande > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:34

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A Zippo can burn at about 4500 degrees, according to 18 seconds of Google. It doesn’t, but it can. 

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 20:34

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Right, but the spoon boiling water just means the spoon reached temperatures in excess of 212. Maybe the plastic melts at 500, maybe 150. No way of knowing.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:35

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I’m just keeping this lightbulb warm!

Merfthemadmauler > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:37

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Hopefully it won’t harm anything. I don’t know you could find and remove it.

Sovande > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 20:45

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Napthalene, according to the internet, burns hotter than butane.

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:47

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I’m doing kitchen FEA

Kitchen Finite Element Analysis?

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:51

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Yes, but here’s the thing. The bits in your crankcase are being continuously subjected to oil temperatures of at least 220F.

As I mentioned, without knowing the alloy of the spoon, it’s all irrelevant. You’d need the surface temperature of the spoon, but it wouldn’t tell you anything.

If you want to be sure, the thing to do is to heat some water to 250F. If the plastic softens  in that, your oil pickup is probably FUBAR.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) 01/05/2019 at 20:55

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And halfassing it big time

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > Sovande 01/05/2019 at 20:56

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Except for the environmental factors that drop the temperature significantly, especially in the Zippo application.

Look, you can trust me on this one. Seriously.

My qualifications, sir:

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 20:56

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Makes sense to me. How would I go about doing that? Would it also work to leave it in a 250° oven?

unclevanos (Ovaltine Jenkins) > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 20:57

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Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 21:00

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250F degree oven won’t do it because you need the liquid temperature to be 250F. Don’t you have like, a barbecue thermometer?

facw > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 21:02

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Unless I’m badly remembering my physics, that water can’t get hotter than 212? If it did it would evaporate. Boiling water stays the same temperature until everything boils off. I guess that’s not super relevant to your experiment though.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 21:10

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Right, how would I get the water temperature above 212°F? I thought that liquid water (assume STP) could only reach 212°F before it becomes gaseous. I don’t have a pressure cooker readily available, either. I put a chunk in the oven at 250°F (I’d guess that the real temp can fluctuate +/- 25% either way), so as far as I know, the plastic will sit at 250ish. Does the thermal conductivity of the oil vs. air factor into this very much? I don’t have a background in chemistry outside of your standard HS stuff.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 21:25

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Yes, water becomes gaseous, but it’s not a ‘poof, instant gas’ thing. Not an expert chemist here either. Basically, if water went poof at 212, you couldn’t cook with boiling water. It boils off at a specific rate which I don’t know how to calculate. So just use a BIG freaking pot of water. Doesn’t matter if some or even most of it boils off for our purposes here.

There’s two risks though. One, oil gets hot and cold spots depending where it is in the pan. Two, that depends on convection flow over it with no other heat sources. That’s why I said ‘soft’ rather than melts. If it gets soft, assume it gets worse. Doesn’t have to be precise either. Over, under, as long as it’s pretty close to 250F it’ll give you an idea.

There’s a thing with plastics and liquids and the way the molecules do something or other but I honestly don’t know anything beyond “don’t use this chemical on this plastic” there.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 21:49

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So here’s where I’m at. Right now I have a chunk in the oven (bumped up to 275°F) and have yet to see any deformation. I think there are a few cases here:

1. T he chunk is large enough it can’t get past the pickup tube’s screen and it doesn’t get hot enough to melt. In this case, nothing happens, and hopefully the bit comes out with the next oil change.

2. The chunk gets past the pickup tube’s screen and gets stuck in the filter. Again, this goes away with the next oil change.

3. The chunk melts. Here, two things can happen.

3a. The sludge gets trapped in the filter. Nothing happens.

3b. The sludge makes its way to the engine.

If after an hour there’s still no deformation or increased malleability thanks to the heat, I’ll take my spare 5w40 and put some of the plastic in a small tin with the oil and put it in the oven for a few hours. The flash point for that oil is 400+, so it’ll be fine. I think that the oil in a 275°F space will be a sufficient simulation of the operating conditions, and if the oil’s conductivity favors the plastic remaining solid, I’ll just leave everything be and put this on my “I’ll get to it” list.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 22:42

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If it’s not getting soft at all, anything big enough to get past the screen isn’t going to do damage. It’ll get past the filter, boohoo, and then it’ll turn into a small bit of crap that lands in your cats.

The real risk with a failure like this isn’t anything that gets past the pickup screen. It’s the pieces that foul the pickup screen leading to starvation, or gum up the pump, same results. Any tiny fiddly bits the size of tiny ball bearings is just gonna get burnt up in the combustion chamber and yeah, it’s not great , but unless you dumped a pound of the crap in there it’s not gonna matter.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 22:48

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Right, it’s a tiny bit, maybe a gram of plastic. And cats? lol

Best case is it gets stuck in the filter. That's what I'm hoping for. I'll probably toss some seafoam in there to hopefully kill any resulting sludge or buildup, then get a change when I'm back at school by my regular shop. Thanks for the help being a second brain on this with me. 

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 23:00

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I wouldn’t bother with Seafoam, it’s mostly snake oil anyway. If you actually get shit like this in the engine, you need a strong solvent . (I keep being tempted to email Tavarish and just be like “dude, just pour a gallon of nail polish remover and denatured alcohol on that stupid Ferrari engine.”)

The risk is if you’ve got big chunks, they STILL are going to get sucked up into the screen, fuck up your pump, oil starvation, etcetera. BUT, they’re not going to glue themselves in there, so you’re gonna know when things go sideways, and it’ll just be a simple pan drop. Not this VW two piece oil pan bullshit.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 23:10

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Wait, this is in the oil  pan, so exactly how is the plastic going to get to the cats? Are you thinking blow-by the rings? If so, the combustion chamber is way hotter than the plastic’s melting temp and any tiny bits that manage to get in there are going to be burned into smoke, right?

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/05/2019 at 23:24

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Eh, it made a noticeable difference when I first got the car. A can isn’t too expensive, either, and it probably can’t hurt.

I agree that any bit small enough to get through the oil filter is small enough that the engine won’t care. Hopefully VW designed the screen on the end of the tube well enough that anything that can get through won’t hurt the pump. A cursory google shows the screen is big enough that the chunk won’t block much of the filter, so that’s a plus.

Rockauto has the oil pan gasket and the oil pump for like $10 for a good one and $44 to $19 0 , so not terrible . Junkyard parts will do me better (cheaper) and are par for my course. I think the easiest course for me is to rationalize that this’ll be fine (check) and completely forget it even happened.

Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/05/2019 at 23:43

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Honestly worst case scenario is this: you drop the pan, clean out some crap, put a new gasket on it, call it a day. I mean c’mon. It’s a VW. The damn thing’s leaking oil somewhere. Or everywhere.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > Spamfeller Loves Nazi Clicks 01/06/2019 at 00:14

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Yeeeeeeah, but that’s a huge pain in the ass without a lift. When I did axles and O2 sensor, I did them with ramps and jack stands. Like a foot and a half of clearance, not ideal and I don’t wanna do it again.

And weirdly, it leaks no oil. 22 years, 130k miles, no oil leaks really. Wet spot near the crank seal, but I've never seen the oil level change on the dipstick in the last 6 ish months. 

diplodicus forgot his password > I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker 01/06/2019 at 18:43

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Find someone with a digital soldering iron. Set the tip to 2whatever and see if it melts.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > diplodicus forgot his password 01/06/2019 at 19:59

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I was going to borrow my brother’s soldering iron that’s variable temp, but it only goes down to 200°C, which is much higher than my oil would get. I baked a few chunks at 300°F for a few hours, and they didn’t melt, just got a bit brittle.